You are retired?
I’m not retired. You are not retired? Certainly not. I’m in my uniform so I’m an archbishop, putting on my attire. If Obasanjo puts on his uniform as a general, he will be arrested.
If he puts on the uniform and tries to perform certain functions, he will be arrested. If a retired IG puts on an IG’s uniform and starts to perform duties, he will be arrested. But here I am, still an archbishop, doing what an archbishop could do, a priest forever.
I am not retired. I withdrew, I stepped down. You can see the difference.
Can it therefore be said that you are now a roving Archbishop?
Not roving.
There is nothing an archbishop can do that I cannot do. There is nothing a bishop can do that I cannot do.
How do I address you – as an Emeritus Archbishop?
Exactly, that is it; but not the word retired or tired.
I am not retired. I can baptise; during ordination of priests I lay my hands, during dedication I lay my hands. I stepped aside, I am not de-robed.
Can you recollect your time as a priest, how you climbed the ladder before you stepped aside?
Well I didn’t climb without a price. It took a long time.
When I was at Dennis Memorial Grammar School (DMGS), then Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop Fisher, was visiting Onitsha. He was visiting Province of West Africa because the Archbishop of West Africa then was Archbishop C.J. Patterson, living in Onitsha. So there were two of us that went to serve and then he asked me what I was going to be.
I said I wanted to be an Agric Assistant so that I can ride a motorcycle. My colleague said he wanted to be a police officer. My father was an Agricultural Officer and his father was a police officer.
Then, there were three other people who left CKC and DMGS as Agric Assistants at Nkwelle farm riding motor-cycles and we loved them. I wanted to be like them. Then he said, “No, you are going to be a teacher and pastor.”
I didn’t take him seriously, though he was a man with a lot of grey hair; an Archbishop and jovial man with long lashes. That was the beginning of the journey inside me, but not outside. When I left DMGS, I took an entrance examination to go to College of Agriculture, Umudike and passed.
But then the Archbishop in Onitsha asked me what happened and I told him that I passed the entrance exam to go to College of Agriculture, Umudike. He said, ah! I thought you were told you were going to be a pastor and teacher.
I said I didn’t really understand. I was meant to go St. Mark’s Teacher Training College, Nibo-Nise. So, I went to St. Mark’s College Nibo-Nise from 1960 – 61.
I left DMGS in 1959 and was sentenced to St. Mark’s to learn how to teach. I didn’t enjoy it because we had to go to the farm to cultivate crops and it was full of dust. Agriculture was optionally compulsory.
After some time, I bolted away with Mr. Reuben Ekpunobi of Obosi and fled with another DMGS old boy, Alphonso Okonkwo, who ended up as senior registrar at WAEC; both of us went to my father’s house at Nkwelle Ezunaka and said we were not going to continue. One day, the principal landed at my father’s house at Nkwelle; we were sitting down and so there was no way I could escape.
That was how I went to Nibo-Nise. Both of us finished and were sentenced to Oraukwu Grammar School to teach. After one year, Alphonso Okonkwo went to Ibadan to study linguistics but my eyes were almost prepared for the ministry.
That was the beginning and that year, our current President, Dr. Goodluck Jonathan, was a house boy to Mr. Ekwebere who was senior chemistry master and vice-principal.
He attended St. Thomas Primary School with my brother who was living with me at Oraukwu. He was in standard III and my brother Geoffrey Anikwenwa who is now at NNPC was in class five. That was 1962 – 63
By 1964, I left Oraukwu for theological training at Trinity College, Umuahia. In another three years, I was ordained at All Saints Cathedral, Onitsha on December 18 by Bishop C.J. Patterson. That was in 1966.
Since we are discussing religious matters now there is this contentious issue at the moment – the ordination of women as priests. What is your take on that?Do you support or disapprove?
Well, my support or no support does not really matter but as an Anglican prelate I want to express my mind.
I don’t find any theology against women ordination.
Jesus never said women should not come near; they served him till death. Where was Peter when Jesus was being tried?
A virgin came along and said he was like him, get him. You know his answer?
“I don’t know this man called Jesus.” But women followed him. That’s what the Gospel tells us. The men stood at a distance but the women followed Jesus closely.
Why should they not take a vow to participate in what they believe in, Lord Jesus, the Saviour of the world?
I don’t see anything wrong theologically against women ordination. But I am bound to obey what the church decides. I have no choice; I have to abide by the decision of the church. I find that the issue of ordination brought a division in the Anglican Church and that gave rise to the church in Africa partly parting ways with the Church of England.
No, the issue of women ordination did not divide us. What we said was well we are not yet matured, that is, the Church of Nigeria Anglican Communion to have women ordained. And when we went to the conference, there were women priests administering communion and we took it.
I did. So, Church of Nigeria did not say no to women ordination, it said we are preparing for it.
What then brought the division?
Well we are in communion with Canterbury. What caused what you called division yes, is what you call gay people, men marrying men, women marrying women and the Bible condemns it. What I read this morning was Genesis 3. When God told Noah to put animals, male and female, in the ark, He did not say only male or female.
He said, “So that the earth will replenish.” But some people in the world said a man may love a man and a woman may love a woman. I am sure the Bible did not say that.
The man should leave his father and mother and be joined to a woman and both of them will become one. So, what is the situation now?
Have you reconciled on that? We have not reconciled. Canterbury, Church of England has not supported it (gay marriage) openly.
Having said that, many countries in Europe have approved gay marriage. We have not approved it. Church of Nigeria says no! It is wrong.
Let’s talk about your achievements. It is believed that you did a lot to put the Anglican Church firmly on the ground.Can we know those things you achieved in Anambra State and beyond?
I didn’t know I put the church firmly on the ground.
You are just telling me. Some people are of the view that you were political when you were archbishop?
Political, you are political, are you not?
If you are not political in seeking something then you are not a serious person, like politics is played among brothers. I am not supposed to be apolitical; I am not supposed to take part in party politics.
What is politics? Science of human living. Even in NUJ there is politics. And you think in the church there is no politics?
There is much of politics in the church but not partisan politics.
I am not a pretender. As for achievement, I did my job. I tried to protect my church in terms of human development. Our priests need to develop; our lay people need to be developed. Ignorance is as bad as Boko Haram insurgency.
So, I had to make sure that the priests are developed and the lay people are developed because un-examined faith is not faith at all.
Didn’t they say that you must love our God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your heart. So you need to develop that so that you can understand the people you are serving. So, that was my priority.
Second is doing theology, what I call inmake carnation. Jesus took human flesh and was born and moved along with people – service.
The whole theology, all God’s talk is about service to mankind. That was why Jesus took the form of a man. He would have been there in heaven, giving us orders.
But He did not do that; He came down and lived among us, seeing our problems, seeing the politics among the disciples.
The mother of James and John went to Jesus and told him, “These are two of my sons. Please, when you leave let one be at your right and one at your left.”
What do you call that? Politics – one will be governor, one will be deputy. That was why I told you that politics is the science of human living
. That is my definition of politics, that is the positive way. The negative way is: it is the shortest way of being rich
Tell me all those who went to Abuja and came back poor. Not one. In the twilight of your career, there was this controversy over who becomes your successor.What really happened?
And what is your relationship with your successor?
My successor is the bishop of Awka and I relate with him well. Who really is your successor? Is it the Bishop of Awka or Bishop of Aguata Diocese?
I was succeeded by three persons: I was succeeded by the Bishop of Awka, I was succeeded by the Dean of Church of Nigeria and I was succeeded by the Archbishop of the Province of the Niger. You held those positions during your time. Yes. So, were you involved in the appointment of your successors?
Bishops are not appointed. Bishops are anointed after Holy Communion and guided by the Holy Spirit. So, what the Holy Spirit does, I cannot challenge it. At what point did Bishop Chukwuma come into play in the appointment of the Bishop of Aguata Diocese?
I don’t know and I wouldn’t know. Some people believe that bringing down Bishop Efobi to Aguata Diocese denied the Igbo the chance of having another bishop. Do you believe that?
It wasn’t Efobi alone that was brought from the North; Chukwuma was brought from the North and Bishop Madu came down from the North too. I must say that at certain stage it was felt that Province II which I led was becoming too strong and there was a need to dilute it.
So, what happened at that time? You were supposed to be the Primate of the Anglican Communion in Nigeria. What really stopped it? Well, Adetiloye retired and there was an election between Peter Akinola and myself and he defeated me at the primary. That was democracy.
And I bowed and became number two.
What do you make of the new wave of Pentecostal churches that are everywhere now?
Every church is Pentecostal. Anglican Church is Pentecostal. If it is not Pentecostal, it is not a church. Pentecostal church is where the Holy Spirit operates.
What we have is neo-pentecostalism. We call it ‘neo’ because ab-initio, Acts of Apostles chapter two when they were seated in prayer with one mind, the Holy Spirit fell on every one of them, isn’t it?
All of them, were they holy people or righteous people? But it fell on them and they spoke in tongues and they understood one another. That was the beginning of the church. But what we have today is neo-Pentecostalism where they recruit people and teach them how to speak in tongues.
There is a school where it is taught, how to speak in tongues, but that is not a gift from God. That is neo-Pentecostalism doing funny things.
Is our God deaf? Why do you shout? Increasing the noise and polluting the air, with all the money going into loud speakers.
It appears that the new groups exclusively ascribe to themselves the name of Pentecostals? Quite right. Now those who call themselves Pentecostals are those who didn’t find positions in other denominations.
They are looking for positions, they are crossing carpet.
There was this disagreement at the National conference where some sections of the country were demanding for some special fund allocation to cushion the effects of Boko Haram.The Igbo also demanded reparations for the civil war among others.How do you react to this?
Justice and equity go together. You don’t inmake issues about the civil war.
I was part of it, a captain; and perhaps the only living chaplain since after the war. What happened in Biafra was a hidden genocide.
Any Igbo man should not forget the civil war. A lot of people suffered.
A lot of people died. Whenever I pass through Oba, I always weep. I was in the 11th Brigade. In those days there would be an operation (attack) at 6.30am.
Before it was 1 pm, come and see dead bodies that I had to bury. There was a burial ground at Oba, which was my area. I think we need to remember those who shielded us during the war.
Those people – lawyers, doctors, graduates – we must remember there was a time we were not wanted and we tried to defend ourselves and we failed.
There were people who were used to shield you and not me, because I participated in the war.
For a sense of history, Biafra should remain somewhere for the Igbo man. The records are there. There are books written on the civil wars; are they being used in schools? Not to create enmity but to tell us how we come to live together.
You cannot be a good Nigerian, if you are an Igbo man without first being a good Igbo man. You cannot be a good Nigerian if you are a Yoruba man without first being a good Yoruba man.
That God put us together, we cannot challenge it.
It is not a disadvantage. What others create we cannot challenge; ethnicity is God’s creation. You are talking about remembering the dead; do you want a periodic ceremony to remember them or what?
There shouldn’t be a periodic ceremony but we must remember that we are Jews. What do you make of those still clamouring for Republic of Biafra?
Do you think they are doing something worthwhile? They cannot do that otherwise they will be charged with treason because of what was Biafra
But Arewa, what is it? Oduduwa, what is it called? Afenifere, what is that? What of Ohaneze N’digbo?
Well you can’t compare Arewa or Ofenifere with Ohaneze whose leaders are not devoted to the cause.
Christianity has been here for a long time, but there is a conflict between it and heathenism.What can you say about Christianity and culture of the people of Igbo land?
Well, when people want to become disobedient to God they speak about culture in a different way. The greatest thing in culture is language. It is not the worship of idols. And those pseudo-Christians in the Anglican Communion we call them those who accepted the Gospel by trick.
We pray in the Anglican Church every morning that God will have mercy on those who fraudulently accepted Christianity, and there are a good number of them. I know there are traditionalists and there are Christians. If Jesus Christ had wanted he would have made all of us Moslems.
But he did not.
What do you think or how do you react to the spate of bomb blasts in different parts of the country these days?
My condemnation is just one of those, but insurgency and terrorism have gone worldwide. Let nobody make any mistake that it is something that will end tomorrow.
All we need, government is doing its best, I think; all the security forces are doing their best and it is for all of us to join them. That is what people have been saying and I believe they are right.
It is not left for the military alone; not left for the governors alone or least to Mr. President. It is for all of us to fight it. And I would say, to live by giving information about everything that happens around us.
There is some thing I want to use to answer this question: to the Scotsman it is see, know, say nothing and I am telling Nigerians: see, know and say something
Interview Publication of The New Telegraph by Tony Okafor