Senator Bukar Abba is a politician who, unlike many others, has tried to stay away from controversies. As a former governor of Yobe State, he was among those who went to court to challenge the constitutionality or otherwise of being eligible to seek re-election, for which the court gave judgment in their favour. As governor, Abba impacted positively on the lives of his people, hence their unflinching support, love and respect for him till date. In this interview with Juliet Oyoyo, he speaks on corruption, gives the recently concluded National Conference a pass mark, especially the area of allowing states create and fund local government, so that money is shared between the federal and state government. Excerpts:
Would you react to the recent ultimatum by the Northern Elders Forum (NEF) that President Goodluck Jonathan must ensure release of the abducted Chibok school girls and end insurgency before next month end, or forget support for a second term?
Well, first of all, issuing an ultimatum to Mr. President will not end the insurgency. The insurgency is not all about the Chibok school girls or just about any particular issue.
Nobody really knows what the insurgency is all about, and in any case, Mr. President has done his best, the security agencies have tried their best to secure the safe release and return of these girls since the insurgency began, and it has even been internationalised by a whole lot of people, and even the American President has commented on it. There is hardly anybody who is somebody in this world today that has not sided with the girls and Nigeria and sympathised with the country. The issue about these girls is that if the Nigerian military wants to secure those girls, they can but in what form are we going to get these girls? If these people who are now so desperate are pushed to the wall, and they discover that they have no way out of the situation and that they will not survive, they will kill the girls. They will rather die along with the girls. Honestly, we do not want dead girls as we would rather have them with the insurgents, still alive than for them to be dead and brought to our homes.
So, it is not a question of brutally forcing those girls from where they are now. It is a question of bringing them out safely. Safety is very important. Quite a good number of these girls have reportedly escaped. So, it is better for us to continue with the only solution… a permanent solution is some sort of negotiations. The Federal government will have to come to terms with the insurgents and sit down and work out something that looks like negotiation. A negotiated settlement over the girls so that the girls can be secured safely and brought back to their parents in good condition and not dead bodies.
So, the Northern Elders Forum’s anxiety can be understood from the background of where they are in captivity, in incarceration for such a long time. Keeping these girls out of their homes, out of school and away from their families, we should understand the circumstances but, an ultimatum will not solve the problem. After all, if the President wants the children to be secured anyhow, he would have done it a long time ago but what is the guarantee that they would be brought back alive. What is the point if they cannot be secured alive? That is the issue.
Let us see how Mr. President can struggle to meet those ultimatums if he can do but if he doesn’t, there is really nothing much we can do. I do not think it might be safe to just go and force the insurgents to bring these girls out of Sambisa forest. After all, Sambisa forest is a very huge one with so many villages and people inside, and it is not just the insurgents. Some people talked about bombing the whole place but if you do so, you might end up killing some many innocent Nigerians. There are so many villages in Sambisa. So, they really have to be very careful about how they go about it in securing these girls. We hope they are secured safely as that is the uttermost wish of all of us; without any damage done to them. That is the issue.
The Presidency has responded saying it cannot be stampeded into fulfilling its duties/obligations to Nigerians. Do you agree with that?
Of course, I am in agreement with that. After all, what is the guarantee from the NEF that if the President orders the military to bring out the girls and they, the girls are brought out dead, are they going to be happy, are they going to leave the President alone if he does that? Yes, it is not impossible for us to get these girls before the ultimatum but the government has to change its tactics, not by using force alone, to some kind of negotiations. After all, it has been reported several times that the insurgents had agreed to negotiate for the safety of the girls in exchange for their own people who are under incarceration. So, let them agree with that and see how we can secure them. But the fact of the matter is that securing these girls alone is not going to be the end of the insurgency. The Army headquarters recently stated that they are working to rescue these girls and that the insurgency is coming to an end. After all, the insurgency is also trying to include Cameroun now. Cameroun, Niger, Chad along with Nigeria, are all totally committed to ending this insurgency. I believe they can do that if they all work together with one mind and determination. They can end this insurgency either by force or, if the force fails, through a negotiated settlement. After all, these insurgents are Nigerians or some other Africans who are helping Nigerians. Whichever way, they are all our brothers and sisters, so let them look for other solutions. They have tried the military for too long and it hasn’t work. So, let them try something else.
Many say the political class is responsible for the high insecurity level in the country today, added to the blame game between the ruling PDP and the opposition, APC…
I don’t think the ruling class is responsible for the level of insecurity in the country. It might have been part of the mistakes of the ruling class, particularly, the Police under the PDP government which pushed some young people in Borno State to the wall and made them turn out to be what they turned out to be. They became very harsh and desperate and took up arms against their country. But, having started and with it getting to the kind of state that we are in now, it has gotten so bad and terrible. I don’t think it is right to continue blaming the elites for what is happening after all, because I don’t think the elites are in any way benefitting from the insurgency. Everybody is losing… So many of our family members… I lost so many direct family members, my constituents and of course, fellow Nigerians left, right and centre. Churches, Mosques… have been bombed with many killed therein. Nobody really benefits from this. Not even the insurgents for now because, we don’t really know what their objectives or aims are, but whatever they want to achieve, I don’t think, with the way they are going about it… they will achieve anything. This is because Nigeria is such a country with huge human and material resources. You cannot tell that, a small group of people, no matter how determined or desperate they are, can defeat Nigeria and set up something that the Nigerian government is opposed to, like establishing an Islamic state. After all, Nigerians are not all Muslims? How can you establish an Islamic state? We are where we are because by virtue of differences. We have a religion and we have worked so well for so long, we have been having peace all along. If God wanted us all to be Christians, he could have done it a long time ago. He wouldn’t have to consult anyone. If He had wanted us to be Muslims, it would have been the same thing. But the fact that He decided to have Christians, Muslims, Atheists and all other people in Nigeria, that’s how He wanted it. That’s how it should be and nobody can challenge it. Nobody can challenge God’s wish. Nobody can challenge God’s power to do whatever He wants to do. So, in a way, what they are doing doesn’t really make any sense. You cannot turn Nigeria into an Islamic state. We are what we are as a country and we should continue to strengthen the democratic institutions so that we can live by the tenets of law and order in a democracy.
As Chairman, Senate Committee on Housing how has the impact of the Federal Government’s housing policies on the common man?
Well, the policy on housing has not really made the necessary or expected impact on the people of Nigeria. People are talking about 17 to 20 million housing deficits, but I believe it is much more than that. After all, some of the houses that Nigerians live in, are not really fit for human habitation. Human beings are not supposed to live in the kind of houses that they call homes. So, it is a lot more than 20 million, and the way we are going about it, constructing a few thousand houses here and there, within the year through budgetary allocation or through some other ways, cannot solve our problems. We really have to introduce proper national mortgage institutions and allow every Nigerian with affordable income to own a house, even if he/she will have to repay the loan over a period of 10, 15 to 20 years… by the end of his service as a civil servant, he should be able to have his family in a comfortable accommodation. And, they will continue to repay it and that is how you can mobilize millions of naira into the housing sector and eventually solve our problems.
The way we are going about it now is a highly elitists approach which will not solve our problems. It will continue to give us more and more unqualified people without a proper, decent and affordable housing for Nigerians. We have to look inwards. Even the mortgage refinancing programme is not likely to solve this problem unless we multiply it from the village level to the city level; from the local government level to the federal Government level. We have the money and resources to mobilize and use it. We just don’t have the political will to do it. Our biggest problem in this country in solving our basic problems generally is the lack of political will. And this political will can only come through deliberate action by our people at all levels, be it at the local, state or federal levels. That is the kind of nation Nigerians deserve. One man can make a very huge difference in Nigeria. If he does the right thing, along with other people who will be assisting him, can solve our fundamental problems forever. Like so many other individuals have done for their own countries; Japan, Britain and the whole of Europe and America. That is how they solved their own housing problems but we have not solved our own. Let us copy these people. It is just like the issue of education.
Education will solve all our problems if we approach it from the right angle by declaring a free and compulsory education for all Nigerians, not minding who their fathers and mothers and uncles are. Let all Nigerians by right, get basic education at least from primary to secondary levels and gradually a universal free and compulsory education. If we are able to solve this national housing matter through international and revolutionary mortgage institutions set out all over the place, through a compulsory education, tackling the problems of erosion and putting in place the right interventions to avoid certain things from happening all over the country, it will take care of many of these problems and other things will just fall in line and our problems will be a thing of the past.
Do you agree with those who identify corruption as a major reason the country has been unable to actualise developmental growth?
Yes, I do. Definitely, corruption is retarding our progress. But you see, if you concentrate on making institutions strong and not fighting individuals; make institutions strong and acceptable to Nigerians, let Nigerians use the institutions to fight corruption, then there will be no need for corruption. If there is no taker, there will be no giver in any situation. Corruption is something you can fight through the enhancement of institution and not fighting individuals. This will not solve our problems. Let us allow our institutions become very strong, so strong that they will not allow our society to be corrupt. When Nigerians know that there is no gain in corruption, they will stop it. If the same group of people can struggle and survive and do well, why would they need to be corrupt?
The national confab recently ended. As a Senator, how do you see in their resolutions, and in what areas do you think they fell short?
I do not know of any area they fell short, but I know of areas they did well. Scrapping of Local Governments, the issue of revenue sharing for the whole country, the issue of the Nigerian state and there are quite a number of other areas that they have done very well that will really help Nigerians. Let the federal government allow states to create their own local governments; whatever number they want, let them create and fund it by themselves. Let the money that goes into the federation account be shared between the Federal and state governments, and then, the states can fund their local governments. The Federal Government can then fund the institutions that are left with them. This is by far, better for everybody than what is happening now.
If this happens, will the chairmen of these LGs have a say in what happens in their respective domains?
No. If there are no Local Governments, there will not be any Local government chairmen. By the state creating their own local governments, there will be their own chairmen, with their own fundings and these chairmen will be under their own control. Definitely, “he who pays the piper, dictates the tune” as they will be the ones paying the chairmen and the councilors.
A major financier of your party (the APC), Senator Ali Modu Sherrif, has decamped to the ruling PDP. How will this affect its finances?
Is Ali Modu Sherrif financing APC? It is not true. I do not know of any single situation when Ali Modu financed either in the ANPP in those days or the APC now. The issue of politicians spending a few million here and there; everybody does a similar thing. This is not funding the APC per se. APC is being funded by everybody who is involved and not just few individuals. The party does not belong to few people; after all we are all making contributions. From Senators, Governors, House of Reps members, Commissioners, Councilors and everybody who is appointed is contributing money for the smooth running of the APC. There is nobody who can claim he or she is the financier of the APC as far as I know. When we lose somebody like Ali Sherrif or anybody for that matter is still a loss. No political party would want to lose but would prefer to gain and gain. Obviously, it is going to be a big loss for us but there are also other areas we are gaining. That is politics. You gain some, you give up others. You win some, you lose some. That is how it goes.
React to the fears by many, who foresee a clash among Atiku Abubakar, Musa Kwankwaso and General Muhammadu Buhari, who have shown interest in running for the Presidency, spelling more trouble for the APC in 2015?
What kind of trouble are they talking about? If internal democracy is allowed to be practiced, these three people along with I, for example are interested in joining the presidential race. If it is done with internal democracy and everything is done openly without any hidden agenda by anybody, we are going to have a presidential candidate, who by the Will of God, Insha Allah win the election and effect change for the first time in Nigeria, because in the history of this country, it has never been ruled by any Progressive. It has always been in the conservative party- be it in the Military or civilian. So, if we are able to gain that, we have our first government won by progressives, run by progressives for the benefit of all Nigerians. The nearest we got to getting a progressive government was when Chief M.K.O Abiola won the elections hands down on a Muslim-Muslim ticket with Ambassador Babagana Kingibe and Nigerians didn’t bother. They won the elections clearly but we all know now what really happened because the conservative forces, to whom government is a matter of life and death, got together and frustrated our efforts. I hope this time around they cannot frustrate our efforts since it going to be done totally under a democratic dispensation.
In the recently conducted guber Osun State election, it was openly feared that the PDP would use “its rigging machinery” to capture the state from the APC. How do you rate INEC after the poll?
Well, let us just say it is possible for us to have free and fair elections in Nigeria. It is possible for INEC to also conduct free and fair elections in the whole of the country with this good example. After all, the Ekiti state election was not too bad as other elections we used to have. So, we are gradually improving and INEC is gradually learning lessons in applying all those lessons to make their performance better. Let us continue to perform better and let Nigerians, in fact the number one people I would want to give credit to are the good people of Osun state who came out en-masse and peacefully voted for an individual of their choice and their choice prevailed. Their choice became the governor. If all Nigerians will do the same thing, we will have no problem at all. It is just so possible for Nigerians to vote in a free, fair and credible election.